Just a little reminder, in case anyone needs one.
says Piper2 on Jun 13th 18 (#820548)
Uhmmm, Obama was trying to HELP Iran Nuke Up
Trump is working on De Nuking.
You understand the difference - right?
You may not understand but when shifting from Not Friend to Friend typically you stop with the trash talk and start with the nice talk. Awe, don't worry, you guys will have learn soon enough.
says Budwick on Jun 13th 18 (#2778219)
So, North Korea is now our friend? Stopping with the trash talk doesn't mean praising a despot who kills his people and starves them to death. And, just in case you haven't realized it, NOKO may not define "denuclearization" the same way we do. Whatever they signed yesterday has no profound meaning and until they get down to the real nuts and bolts of a treaty that gets submitted for Congressional approval, I'm not counting my chicks.
says Linnster on Jun 13th 18 (#2778228)
No Linn - but many of us think it would be better if he were a friend to us and the rest of the world. I realize that you are obviously not in that camp for some reason - I just can't fathom why.
Everyone is waiting to see what happens. No one knows if he's good for his word or not. If the past is any indication, then no. But, things can change - and maybe Kim changed. If he doesn't, what have we lost? Not pallets of money! And we can even resume war games which suddenly has become important to the left for some reason.
To assume he's a ** and treat him like a would seem to return **-like results to me.
says Budwick on Jun 13th 18 (#2778231)
Your response reminds me of the parable about the frog and the scorpion. The scorpion doesn't change and I don't believe that KJU will either. I don't see any necessity for Trump to gush over what a wonderful person KJU is. He's a POS. He's got nukes and missiles that can probably reach the U.S. Why would KJU bow down to Trump and give up whatever leverage he has?
We don't need him to be a friend to us. NOKO has absolutely nothing to offer us.
But, feel free to continue your eternal hope. If we're lucky, Trump will not have been lulled into a sense of security only to find out just how far reaching KJU's arsenal can fly.
says Linnster on Jun 13th 18 (#2778233)
Well, I'm glad you are not negotiating peace.
says Budwick on Jun 14th 18 (#2778588)
I wouldn't negotiate with a despot such as KJU.
says Linnster on Jun 14th 18 (#2778636)
Yeah, better to negotiate peace with people we're already friendly with.
Why waste time with someone that has been all those horrible things and has expressed an interest in changing? Regardless of how many North Koreans might benefit - Amirite?
says Budwick on Jun 14th 18 (#2778712)
Well, I guess that's the difference between us - I am not under the impression that KJU is going to change. KJU has made many "peace" deals in the past, all of which he has reneged on. Why would I think this one would be different? I can't see him giving up the one area of leverage he has - nuclear weapons - to make peace with the West.
says Linnster on Jun 14th 18 (#2778714)
How many times must I write it before your read and understand Linn?
"Everyone is waiting to see what happens. No one knows if he's good for his word or not. If the past is any indication, then no. "
Maybe he won't give them up. But, maybe he finally understands that the only leverage he REALLY has is to give up the nukes!
You are suggesting that we assume the worst. Should we cut out all the waiting and just bomb the hell out 'em now?
Should we back off and let it all fester for another 50- 60 years?
Or should we take a chance at peace. A CHANCE THAT SO FAR COSTS US NOTHING.
says Budwick on Jun 14th 18 (#2778733)
I believe you said you weren't going to continue this and I agreed. Feel free to get yourself worked up over this - I'm done.
says Linnster on Jun 14th 18 (#2778742)
I think it's interesting that you thought of this parable.
I found this opinion written on dailyprogress.com March of 2017.
So who is wrong? You or the progressive rag?
"When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so. “Just my nature, frog.” The moral of the story — the frog should have been aware of the scorpion's nature, and so we should always be aware of the true nature of those who surround us.
I've been thinking about that story a lot lately. How absolutely twisted is the lesson it imparts? So those who are good-hearted are at fault for trusting, for showing compassion, for loving? While the evil and morally ambiguous are excused? It's just their nature?
Is that the society we want? Is that the society we've created? Jaded and cruel? One in which we're all just potential marks and saps? Just our nature. Hmmm. Do we truly want to live in a society and world that punishes the innocence of the frog over the mendacity and guile of the scorpion? And let’s circle back to a central point of the story, the dueling natures of the two animals, particularly the simple-minded naiveté of the frog.
Naiveté or faith? Faith in the ability of one to redeem himself? Faith in the human spirit? Faith in a brotherhood that bonds us all? Consider this, the frog knew the scorpion was likely to sting him and still chose to carry him. Why? Because he wanted to give the scorpion an opportunity to redeem himself or to prove his self-worth or...he simply didn't want to pre-judge an individual, for how can we condemn someone for an action he has yet to commit?
I contend that we're looking at this parable from the wrong angle. It isn't the frog that is at fault here. He did what he is supposed to do — help someone in need. It's the scorpion's actions that need to be evaluated. He struck the frog, even though it killed him in the process. So, perhaps, the moral of the story should be — always fight your baser instincts, your selfishness, your greed, your self-destructive inner impulse, or what have you, because it not only hurts others but yourself as well. "
says Budwick on Jun 14th 18 (#2778611)
The moral of the story is that some things are so ingrained that they are unchangeable and to expect that change is to be naïve in the extreme. We are not helping someone in need. We are giving credibility to a man who has violated the law of humanity and human rights.
says Linnster on Jun 14th 18 (#2778640)
So, it's better to live with the threat of Nuclear War than to try and fix it?
I wrote earlier - "
Everyone is waiting to see what happens. No one knows if he's good for his word or not. If the past is any indication, then no." No one is naïve here Linn. Someone being obnoxiously stubborn for no good reason though.
says Budwick on Jun 14th 18 (#2778705)
No, it isn't better to lice with the threat of nuclear war, but I'm not certain this is the fix.
says Linnster on Jun 14th 18 (#2778708)
NO ONE is certain this is the fix - NO ONE!
Even Trump has expressed his tentative feelings.
The resistance seems to be certain that anything Trump does - is not the fix. Automatically -
Trump did it - it's wrong.
Trump said it - it's immoral.
Trump wants it - it's bigoted.
It's getting a little old Linn.
says Budwick on Jun 14th 18 (#2778710)
Bud, it's getting old that the devout Trump followers think he walks on water, so I guess that makes us even. He's a charlatan and a buffoon whose sole interest is to make more money for himself and his family. He sees North Korea as his next real estate deal. Mar-A-Pyongyang is in the works as we speak.
says Linnster on Jun 14th 18 (#2778711)
OK, I'm about done wasting my time explaining what is perfectly obvious.
You are being willfully ignorant on the topic of Trump.
I've given you perfectly reasonable comments and explanations and you come back with " devout Trump followers think he walks on water" and "his next real estate deal. Mar-A-Pyongyang is in the works ".
Think before your next comment Linn.
says Budwick on Jun 14th 18 (#2778719)
I'm done, too. Neither of us is going to change our views.
says Linnster on Jun 14th 18 (#2778732)
It doesn't matter what he does. All the liberals care about is that liberals are in charge. If conservatives bring World peace, end hunger, and end disease, they will still continue their infernal bitching. It's nauseating. They're hypocrites calling people hypocrites which makes them hypocrites.
says JerryHendrickson on Jun 13th 18 (#2778269)
Actually the deal with Iran was about controlling their Nuclear capabilities, WITH VERIFICATION. Haven't heard anything about verify from Trump. But then again, Trump talked to Kim Jong Un for 45 minutes and knows how honest and trustworthy he is.
Don't get me wrong, this is a start, and I hope it leads to something, but I'm not holding my breath.
says Flrdsgns on Jun 13th 18 (#2778257)
This was the opening round of negotiations. Do you suppose the Obama administration signed the final agreement with Iran immediately? Or did it take some six and a half years?
says Bozette on Jun 14th 18 (#2778287)
Negotiations take time, but claiming victory after every meeting is just silly. It's a start, and I hope it does lead to NK ending its nuclear program, but I don't really need to hear a daily victory speech from Trump or his administration.
says Flrdsgns on Jun 14th 18 (#2778441)
I understand that, but (forgive my laziness, but I'm going to cut and past from a lengthy post I just finished) there's lots of talk about Trump's hyperbole. That's Trump. That won't change. Anyone who doesn't realize it by now is a complete and utter idiot, and I am reasonably certain that each and every news personality, politician, and world leader, as well as the majority, if not all, of the liberals on Amirite are fully cognizant of that fact. Y'all can deride Trump for it, but it is what it is.
says Bozette on Jun 14th 18 (#2778450)
Sour grapes Flanders - really.
Should we wait for the New York Times to point out that no other president has EVER had such a meeting with NK?
What's the big deal over admitting that was has been done is pretty cool and hoping it works out? Why does it have to be coupled with 'but he should have done it this way'?
says Budwick on Jun 14th 18 (#2778702)
Bud, I've already stated that the meeting is a historic event, and that I hope something comes of it. Any agreement has to start with a first meeting.
says Flrdsgns on Jun 14th 18 (#2778713)
Yeah, and then you added -
" but claiming victory after every meeting is just silly. ..., but I don't really need to hear a daily victory speech from Trump or his administration."
Have you ever known someone who is just never satisfied? It gets annoying.
says Budwick on Jun 14th 18 (#2778737)
You never seem to be satisfied, so yeah, you can be very annoying
says Flrdsgns on Jun 14th 18 (#2778740)
Holding your breath isn't required. Anyone with a memory is skeptical with good reason.
Gilding the lily regarding Iran however is not allowed.
What Obama said the deal was about and what it was really about seems to be different things. There hasn't been any verification. Iran hasn't allowed any verification. That's part of why Trump has told 'em to go fly a kite.
Trump DID talk verification, but this Korea deal isn't anything more than a concept right now. You and I in our last two comments have probably written more words than what Kim and Trump signed.
Anyway - give it a little time.
says Budwick on Jun 14th 18 (#2778564)
That is not the impression I ever got, from reading about the long lead up to and conclusion of the Iran nuclear deal.
Did you see anything in the text of this post, or in the link and video that compared or even mentioned the Iran accord?
Yeah Budwick, I understand that a degree of pleasantry and adherence to cultural decorum are a good idea when seeking a goal with even a brutal dictator.
says Piper2 on Jun 14th 18 (#2778815)
" the long lead up to and conclusion of the Iran nuclear deal. "
The deal that was super secretive?
Kept from the public eye?
Never presented to Congress?
Gave billions to our enemy?
Is THAT deal you read so much about?
says Budwick on Jun 18th 18 (#2780292)
I can neither play the video nor find it either at the source (whose videos I cannot play either) or on YouTube. So I cannot respond specifically to what is on it.
News personalities and people online slam presidents of the party with the opposing party/bias as theirs, but give "their" president a pass or applaud him, thus displaying their hypocrisy?
says Bozette on Jun 13th 18 (#2778248)
"News personalities and people online slam presidents of the party with the opposing party/bias as theirs, but give "their" president a pass or applaud him, thus displaying their hypocrisy?"
MANY do. No reasonable person could really dispute that, unless they are blinded by their own bias towards whichever side they are most aligned with. Due to the preponderance of recent and past comments and posts that are solely fixated on the hypocrisy of "liberals", or anyone with left-leaning views...a reminder to some.
Nah, no shocker. No point in attempting to post the video again I guess, but just in case...
says Piper2 on Jun 14th 18 (#2778427)
I never said ALL did...
Okay, the video showed the Fox clips near the end. And there was acknowledgement that the left-leaning news is guilty, too. Kudos for that. I will address a few things it spoke extensively of, though.
* There are lots of complaints that this agreement doesn't have locked in inspections, other demands and guarantees, or much substance. This was a preliminary agreement without all the details hammered out yet. The Iran deal took some six and a half years to finalize.
* Even within the preliminary agreement we gave nothing up, as has been claimed. Not. One. Single. Thing. Much less giving up more than Kim, as many are claiming. Both the freeze on war games and new sanctions were outside of the signed agreement. They were goodwill gestures that can be reversed at any time should Kim renege. As can the security guarantees within the agreement, as the entire agreement is null and void if one party reneges.
* One clip in the montage says Mattis was consulted about, but hadn't yet given his approval to freezing the war games...Trump doesn't need Mattis' approval.
* There's talk of Trump abandoning South Korea and our allies in the region because he spoke of eventually bringing our troops home. He also said that's not on the table now. Nor, as a practical matter, would it be done quickly as we have OPCON. Moon wants to segue into joint command, which would be necessary prior to a withdrawal. So withdrawal is likely years in the future. That could be under negotiation and the process begun during continuing negotiations with Kim (by both the US and SK), and withdrawal delayed or scrapped if Kim reneges or the deal with him is not yet finalized with Kim abiding by it. If peace and denuclearization are indeed effected, that is a worthy goal, not just because we're paying for it and have been all these years, but because South Korea should have full national sovereignty, which they have not had for the past 65 years.
* The human rights issues were not the focus of the summit (but I did see that it was spoken of). Opening diplomatic relations at all is the first step in dealing with those issues in the future. The only other options are more sanctions and/or military action...both of which would hurt the citizens of North Korea even more. Not to mention the human rights violations the US has consistently ignored for decades in other countries, with both our allies and foes.
* I highly doubt anyone outside of NK believes their propaganda, so that's a moot point. And Trump’s hyperbole does not give Kim "legitimacy" as a leader that he doesn't already have. He is, factually, the leader of North Korea. And that is a very legitimate reality for the citizens of NK. If Kim actually uses that footage within NK, it won't convince his citizens that Kim is some great guy...they know better.
* There's lots of talk about Trump's hyperbole. That's Trump. That won't change. Anyone who doesn't realize it by now is a complete and utter idiot, and I am reasonably certain that each and every news personality, politician, and world leader, as well as the majority, if not all, of the liberals on Amirite are fully cognizant of that fact. Y'all can deride Trump for it, but it is what it is.
says Bozette on Jun 14th 18 (#2778447)
You did not, and my comment was not intended to imply otherwise.
The video in the link with the post, was simply a compilation of various Fox News commentators blasting candidate Obama for even talking about meeting with foreign leaders considered our enemies. HuffPost was the only site I could find it on...I first heard it somewhere else. I did not realize the video I found on CNN had so much other commentary on it...my mistake. I am unable to listen to it now, due to getting a "video unavailable" when I try to.
I do appreciate you taking the time to share your views on Trump's meeting with and preliminary agreement with Kim Jong Un. I'm all for goodwill gestures and diplomacy, and have mentioned that many times in the past.
Yes, I agree that anyone who actually expects to Trump to change is at best delusional. His hyperbole would be more amusing, were he not to hold such a prominent and powerful position, however. It is certainly not just "liberals" who deride him for it, but yeah...I figure anyone can criticize the president of their or any country for his or her own words and actions, without passively accepting the the kind of vitriol and accusations that spurred this post.
says Piper2 on Jun 15th 18 (#2778846)
Yep, you just got your ** handed to you. Don't worry Bozette has kicked my ** on multiple occasions. Go ahead, try to fight.
says JerryHendrickson on Jun 14th 18 (#2778453)
Fox is an opinion channel, as is MSNBC, very little news on either station.
says Flrdsgns on Jun 13th 18 (#2778259)
Fox News does actually report news. Many of the commentators on MSNBC and Fox are extremely biased towards their side of the political aisle, without a doubt.
says Piper2 on Jun 14th 18 (#2778418)
I do remember. Fox News, especially Hannity, criticized Obama for everything he tried to do or say. Even when he got Osama Bin Laden, they wouldn't give him credit for it.
Fox News badmouthed President Obama no matter what he tried to do, but they are letting Trump, a known liar, get away with anything. They need to wake up to the fact how dangerous Trump really is.
says StarzAbove on Jun 13th 18 (#2778262)
Yes. So did numerous members of that other site some of us participated on for years...they did it every day, over and over. For wearing a tan suit..for bowing, or not bowing correctly....for being "too chummy" with a few foreign dictators. He was the anti-Christ, because a fly landed on his face.
Anyone who criticizes our current president, though, is blinded by and consumed by hate.
says Piper2 on Jun 15th 18 (#2779285)
They laughed and hooted about the gift the Obamas gave Queen Elizabeth. In May 2009, conservatives criticized Obama as an elitist because he ordered a burger with "spicy mustard" or "Dijon mustard." Fox News host Sean Hannity ...
There were no scandals about the Obamas, a good husband, good father, only one wife.... too bad Trump can't say the same, three wives, cheated on all of them.
You're right, when we point out the scandals, the lies, the corruption of the Trump administration, they bring up Hillary.... I don't hate Trump, I hate what he's doing to our country. Some supporters need to take their head out of the sand before it's too late.
says StarzAbove on Jun 15th 18 (#2779294)
The meeting was a good thing. But, the praising and applauding him for what a good job he has done, turns my stomach.
As far as the hypocrisy of the party? Ive been shaking my head about that for months and months.
says Carla on Jun 13th 18 (#2778263)
I think the meeting is potentially a good thing too, Carla. His over-the-top praise of Kim Jong Un, and seeming admiration for him and certain other brutal dictators is odd and unsettling to me as well, though.
says Piper2 on Jun 15th 18 (#2779290)
I think he has true admiration for them, while showing contempt for this nations true allies, whom i believe he sees as weak. I hope we can elect someone who can clean up the mess he is making.
says Carla on Jun 15th 18 (#2779295)
To be honest, if Trump had decided to pull our armed forces out of that region and let them sort it out, I'd have been totally okay with that. I'm okay with him not signing the G7 fluff as well.
The only thing that really bothers me was him giving DPRK the photo-op. That shouldn't have happened.
I hate to think we have a potus so easily strung by his ego he can be manipulated into kissing the **** of a two-bit dictator just to feign accomplishment.
says ForkNdaRoad on Jun 13th 18 (#2778270)
Well, it's Fox News. Double standards and hypocrisy is like air to them. They have proved that plenty of times.
says Sofia on Jun 14th 18 (#2778318)
I don't need a reminder.
That's why I quit watching lame stream media long ago.
Nothing but back and forth drama..
They all suck...whether it's the channel that represents your party or not..
They do stay on the air, so obviously there are lots of people that think only the channel that represents them is telling the truth..
says DandyDon on Jun 14th 18 (#2778419)
I don't doubt that one, bit, DD.
A person doesn't need to watch "lame stream" media though, to notice that double standards are far, far from exclusive to the the left. It does get tiresome after awhile, to see those who simply criticize this president being accused of "blind seething hatred" over and over, for instance.
says Piper2 on Jun 15th 18 (#2779218)
You're right and that's something that will never end..for any president.
From George Washington to present day.
The president is either... the best thing since sliced bread to some and at the same time...a blithering idiot to others.
Ultimately the only thing that really matters(In my opinion) is the vote that everyone is given and how they chose to use it.
The rest in between of 2 sides bickering with each other, doesn't amount to a hill of beans..to me.
That's why I do my best not to entertain it.
says DandyDon on Jun 15th 18 (#2779306)
I don't watch teevee
let's look at this situation from a different angle
Obama send cash in the dark of night to IRAN
IRAN never signed anything
CONGRESS never RATIFIED any Obama/iran deal
moving on to the rocketman
from his birth, he's only known HATE, so that is how he behaves until.... Trump
rocketman loves to be loved by all
he's what 34 or something like that
what if President Trump showed him a different path
a pathe of Prosperity for his people
North Korea has done terrible things in the past
President Trump or any democrat, cannot change that
we can change the future...that we can do
A small step towards towards a better tommarow
Xi Jinping Pulls Missiles from South China Sea Leading Up to Successful North Korea Summit
if Peace can be found on the Korean Pennisula
that would transform rocketman from a dictator to a rockstar
says Neanderthal_Momdoer on Jun 14th 18 (#2778420)
and the fail bubble gets bigger and bigger.....
says TomboyJanet on Jun 14th 18 (#2778576)
what is your Solution?
so far all you are doing is
Bitching Moaning & Complaining
says Neanderthal_Momdoer on Jun 15th 18 (#2778871)
To me, it’s kind of crazy when people claim Kim won something because of a “photo op”. I live in the “real” world. Does a photo somehow give Kim legitimacy for all the horrific things he has done? No. Are world leaders going to look at a picture of Kim shaking hands with the President of the United States and suddenly think they need to respect and admire Kim? No.
Just what does this picture really signify? It simply represents the fact that the dictator of N Korea and a President of the United States are finally talking, face to face. Can anyone give me an example of problems between countries being solved without such meetings?
Is anyone really simple minded enough to believe President Trump, or any other world leader, actually trusts Kim? All this was, was a meeting. Whether or not Kim will act in good faith can only be answered through time. Did President Trump show up to the meeting with pallets of money that he handed to Kim because Kim “promised” to do something? No. Is President Trump sending ships filled with food and relief aid to N Korea? No. (That was done by his predecessors)
Some claim the President gave concessions by canceling a military exercise. Do they understand what a military “exercise” even is? A military exercise is “practice”. I participated in those exercises in Korea in the past. Canceling an exercise, which can be resumed at any time, does not change our military capability or readiness one bit. To be honest here, canceling the UFL exercise will save the military millions of dollars.
Do I like Kim? No. Do I trust Kim? No. I don’t call it praise, when I am just “glad” to see him at the table talking, instead of launching missiles and issuing threats. I am disappointed in those who hate the President so much that they would rather see a war, (one that they personally don’t have to fight in) than give the President credit for getting Kim to the negotiation table. If the negotiations fail, then they fail. At least it’s a “chance” for something that we didn’t have before.
As to the claim that the Presidents predecessors did not “praise” a brutal dictator, they are wrong. Not only did ALL Trumps recent predecessors praise brutal dictators around the world, they also gave dictators and leaders of sadistic regimes, American tax dollars. (That's money out of MY pocket, and YOURS) They never addressed solving the problem. They simply delayed the problem, allowing it to get worse, and the dictators more powerful over time, hoping it would be the problem of someone else a few years down the road. They sold out American’s future for their “legacies”.
Just my two cents.
says JustJimColo on Jun 14th 18 (#2778669)
From every thing ive read, the money given to iran did not all come from the us. And, it was their own dollars, frozen in many different banks around the world, for years.
says Carla on Jun 15th 18 (#2779098)
It's kind of ironic that we have given Zimbabwe over 260 million dollars since 2001 when their population is only 16 million people. (That's over 16 million dollars per person) Sounds crazy to me.
says JustJimColo on Jun 15th 18 (#2779126)
Carla, I'm not just talking about the money given to Iran by Obama. Here is a link to how much "aid" has been given to all countries.
It's interesting when you look, and find little tidbits, like the fact that we have given over 156 million in aid to Vietnam just in 2016.
The majority of aid goes to Africa.
Hell Carla, we even give aid to Canada.
says JustJimColo on Jun 15th 18 (#2779154)
I get giving aid to poor nations and the suffering people in them. If we are certain the aid actually reaches the people.
Im not well versed in the way aid is given or why. My sense tells me that foreign lobbies and who they lobby are the true benefactors.
Canada.....$$ for potholes. You should ride our roads.
says Carla on Jun 15th 18 (#2779310)